Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Lead with heart. I'm Dr. Jesse Hanson and today we explore the essence of leadership beyond strategy and status. You're watching now Media Television.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Hello and welcome to Lead with Heart. I'm your host, Dr. Jesse Hanson. On Lead with Heart. We look at how strategy meets soul. We look at how leadership weaves into our life beyond just corporate leadership, but all levels of leadership. And I'm here today in this beautiful dome called Sacred Sound Studios in Costa Rica with an amazing man called Nick Murray. Thank you for being here today. Nick, you are a tech entrepreneur and the co founder and CEO of Advanced Care and Wake Network. Nick's path into health and wellness began not through technology, but through a deeply personal experience that forced him to question how we live, cope, and care for ourselves. So I'm so happy to have you here with us, Nick. Thank you so much for coming to Costa Rica. And yeah, as it said here just in the intro, being able to look back at who you are as a human, this is one of my other ideas with this show, is that oftentimes it's so much about the product or the brand that we are creating, and oftentimes I think that the humanness gets lost in that. So this is the idea is they get a chance to better understand you as a man while we also highlight and look at all the successes you've had.
So for our viewers who are watching, can you take us back as a psychologist? Can't resist it, the urge for childhood knowledge. But yeah, where did you grow up? What was happening back then? What, you know, family life early on? What set you up for this path?
[00:01:46] Speaker C: Thank you, Jesse, and thanks for inviting me to such a beautiful dome.
I was born in South Africa.
I was there for the first five years of my life and we immigrated to Canada when I was 5.
And that at the time, I didn't realize how impactful the first five, ten years of your life are.
And it really, I'm very eternally grateful for it. It really gave me a different concept of living, of weather, of people, of what's possible. And so we came to Canada, figured out what snow was, went to school, lost my accent, and it's been a journey ever since. I was born a geek.
And so technology was always a big part of my world.
And now things in hindsight always seem a little clearer, but I feel like I've always been kind of bridging worlds, so to speak, whether that's the east and the west, so to speak, the brics and the, the NATO, the way the west of the world.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:02:56] Speaker C: Technology and medical has been more of a. Of a bridge that I've been, you know, really, really leaning into.
And then, and then just kind of the natural and the technological, let's call it.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: Yeah, okay.
[00:03:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: So coming to Canada around five, it just opened up your. Your mind and your world and snow and all those other experiences.
Was there any challenges that came to you in that transition? Are you only child? Like, did you have siblings to compete with?
[00:03:24] Speaker C: Tell us a little bit about sibling. Yeah, sister. And so we were always competing growing up. I was the older brother, but only by a year and a half.
[00:03:31] Speaker B: Okay, so pretty close.
[00:03:32] Speaker C: Very close.
[00:03:33] Speaker B: Yeah, we.
[00:03:36] Speaker C: A lot of challenges. I mean, what was wonderful was that the world was truly open.
We moved to a fairly small town, so travel wasn't a very common thing in that town.
Outsiders, immigrants wasn't really a common thing.
People being from Africa, but not being African American, color was something. So there was a lot of, like, at 5, you don't have answers for these things. But it was an interesting upbringing where both parents have accents and, well, we basically had three accents in the house. And they didn't enjoy when I made fun of their accents, but I got really good at it.
But I think technology was kind of like this.
Not that we had a wonderful childhood and upbringing, but technology was like this safe place for me. It was a world where I could just dive in and I kind of evolved from Lego to technology.
[00:04:36] Speaker B: Lego, that's a great metaphor. I never thought. But Lego is actually the first technology that a lot of kids are introduced to. Right, the system of blocks and where
[00:04:44] Speaker C: you can create your own world and you can disappear and time just melts and you come out of it with something you can actually touch.
[00:04:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. The part that you say come out something you can touch. As. As a psychologist, I often have this feeling of like, gosh, sometimes I wish I'd just been a carpenter or a master LEGO builder. Because you can build it and be like, this is done, it's ready. Whereas in our landscape of being human, we get somewhere and then new things happen and we're like, ah, we gotta repair that. Well said. Yeah, you know, I hear you on that. And you said it wasn't awful. Childhood wasn't, maybe wasn't. None of us have perfect childhoods. But sometimes, and I don't know, you tell me if this resonates with you or not, sometimes, like, we get interested or driven into technology or Legos or more let's call them, like left brain things, because there's Either a misattunement or an absence of some sort of the right brain elements, which would be more of like the, you know, emotional sharing or, you know, things like that. So I'm just curious is that if you look back at your childhood was,
[00:05:52] Speaker C: you know, it was.
My father was definitely very busy, lots of international business travel.
So that was probably part of it. And then he was kind of like forced to bring me along on his journeys, which was really cool for me.
[00:06:07] Speaker B: Meaning literally you had he got to travel with him. Yeah. Okay.
[00:06:09] Speaker C: So that, that took me to California for the first time, which was just amazing. Being from a small town in Collingwood, you know, getting to go to all of these amazing places.
[00:06:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:19] Speaker C: My mom's a nurse. She always wanted me to, to be a doctor. And I was always intrigued by the body, but technology has always been my thing.
So in a way, in hindsight, again, looking back, it was my way of kind of getting into wake and some of the things we've done with wake was the way that I could be a doctor esque.
You've actually done the schooling.
But my way, I guess is a
[00:06:45] Speaker B: way to put it, integrating the best parts of the western and the medical and the left brain. Brain with still keeping it connected to healing. Right?
[00:06:53] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:06:53] Speaker B: So, yeah. Okay, great. So so far you've painted the picture. That young guy from South Africa moves to Canada, start to discover like there's a lot more to this world that I realized. And then I guess around that Same time between 5 and 10 is Legos into technology.
And we're going to get into in a further segment like really who you are now without going there yet. What? Yeah, tell me about when sort of the consciousness around healing or wellness. How did that start to show up in your life?
Rough ages. But more importantly sort of scenarios. Was there a school of hard knocks that, that. Yeah. Okay. Yep.
[00:07:26] Speaker C: Yeah. I've always been an adventurous person, adventurous soul.
So there was a. Quite a few broken bones, quite a few, you know, visits to the hospital, snowboarding, skiing, pushing.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: Pushing the edge.
[00:07:42] Speaker C: Pushing the edges. Yeah, pushing the boundaries.
So it.
I started to realize there was similarities in technology where it's a system of systems and the body is a system of systems and how you can tweak and overclock and heal and basically work within those systems of systems. And that parallelism is something you don't unsee.
So that was certainly part of it.
[00:08:13] Speaker B: And so was this like an adolescent version.
[00:08:15] Speaker C: Like I'm just kind of trying to
[00:08:16] Speaker B: get a sense of what were the life factors that made you realize I wanted not just be a computer programming tech guy. Right.
[00:08:22] Speaker C: Like, it was computers that showed me that, like, anything's possible, you know, when. Because it was like late 80s, early 90s, you know, each classroom in Canada would get one computer, and then, you know, you'd have to figure it out. And so I was helping the teacher figure it out, but I was under 10.
And then my dad bought a computer for the house and I was showing him how to use it, which he didn't really like because, you know, he's like, accountant and like, you know, I know what I'm doing.
So I think partially it was me realizing that the adults don't have it all figured out, that I can figure it out, that I can take the Lego kind of way of looking at life into the technological realm, whether that's upgrading the computer, making software, changing software.
It's the malleability of life is manifested through at that time, for me, technology.
[00:09:16] Speaker B: Wow. So as you kept growing, evolving, where did your life start, become? I mean, like you said, it's integrated there as sort of helping the teachers. But what about your profession?
Give our viewers a sense of, yeah, some of the stuff you've done to get to where you are now.
[00:09:30] Speaker C: I mean, statute of limitations. I could probably be more honest than I wish I should, but there was.
I mean, we growing up, a lot of the kids couldn't afford the video games that they wanted to use. And so I figured out how to modify the consoles to be able to play and copy games. And so that was my first enterprising foray into business.
And then it was helping people with websites, making websites.
Actually making software wasn't until, like, college age, but it was this autonomy that I really enjoyed. It was, I can do it, I can make it. If I see an issue, I can address it with technology.
So it was this.
It kind of gave me that. I guess inherently I wanted to be like a free kind of person.
It allowed me to be. Whether it was just money that was, you know, created out of it, or it was just the ability to do the thing that I wanted to see the website or the graphics or the artwork or the software. Eventually.
[00:10:36] Speaker B: And not only that, the freedom too, of, especially in today's world, but of like, you know, being able to work from wherever you are. Right. That's where you got into a job market that didn't require you to be locked into a. Yeah. Warehouse or something.
[00:10:48] Speaker C: Absolutely, yeah. And I. And I took that on quite early on, actually. After school.
I went. I moved west. And then within about two years out of school.
So, yeah, mid 2000s, I was working remotely and I kind of didn't look back.
[00:11:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Wow. And since then, yeah, you've been that same path of sort of just, I don't call it nomadic, but, you know, using that freedom power that you've had to be able to be wherever you want to be in the world.
[00:11:18] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:11:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:11:20] Speaker B: That's so beautiful. That's so beautiful, man. No, thank you. So just quick to recap that we've got, we've got a young man that came from South Africa to Canada. Seems like almost. Yeah. You know, without a deeper psychological diving here, there's almost like this innate relationship that you've had to technology since you were young, being smarter than your dad and the teachers in terms of being able to tell them what it is. So to me, that's just fascinating too, that the young mind already sort of being ready for that. So really cool. And I want to. I want to. When we get back from this break, we're going to go deeper into Nick's story. We're going to learn more about who he's becoming today. He's mentioned the word wake a couple times. I have as well. We're going to find out what that's all about, so stay tuned. We'll be right back here on Lead with Heart on NOW Media tv.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: We'll be right back with more insight stories and practices to help you lead from your whole self. This is Lead with Heart on NOW Media Television.
Leadership isn't just about decisions. It's about presence, compassion and courage.
I'm Dr. Jesse Hanson, somatic psychologist and healer.
[00:12:32] Speaker B: And on Lead and Heart, we we explore what happens when we lead with
[00:12:35] Speaker A: awareness, compassion and the body in mind.
From brain health to relational intelligence, from trauma informed leadership to embodied teams, each episode reveals a deeper way to lead.
Lead with Heart is airing now on NowMedia TV because the greatest leaders don't just guide people, they awaken them.
[00:12:59] Speaker B: And we're back.
[00:13:00] Speaker A: I'm Dr. Jesse Hanson and you're watching Lead with Heart on Now Media Television.
Let's continue embracing leadership with presence and purpose.
[00:13:09] Speaker B: Welcome back to Lead with Heart. Want more of what you're watching? Stay connected to Lead with Heart and every NOW Media TV favorite live or on demand, anytime you like, Download the free Now Media TV app on Roku or iOS and unlock nonstop bilingual programming in English and Spanish.
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All right, everyone, welcome back here. Lead with heart, Nick Murray. Thank you for being with us.
[00:13:50] Speaker C: My pleasure.
[00:13:51] Speaker B: So we got a little sense of where you've been. I want to know where you are now, where you're heading. I want to know about, you know, what has happened from this young guy growing up understanding technology more than he ought to at his age.
Tell me what's happened from there. In particular, I want to really dive into that place where as a psychologist and healer role, I see you in that same light. So I'm so curious about that part of your story because most people that end up in a technology job don't usually end up also caring as much as you do about healing.
[00:14:26] Speaker C: Yeah, it really goes back to that system of systems.
It just was something I saw.
A close friend was going through cancer treatment and I thought, how can I help?
What is the tweaks and the hacks that are going to make the biggest impact, similar to software, similar to hardware, like, what area of the system should we focus on kind of thing. And it actually brought me here to Costa Rica.
[00:14:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:53] Speaker C: Over a decade ago.
First on the east coast, then on the west coast. Met some amazing people. I mean, this place is just full of wonderful, brilliant people from the healing side, from the spiritual side, from both.
And it was the same time that I was building a tech company and going public with it in Canada.
And so we both had these kind of very adult things going on in our life together, and we just had to figure it out. And so it was quite a grow up fast moment.
[00:15:28] Speaker B: But roughly what age was that?
[00:15:31] Speaker C: 27.
[00:15:32] Speaker B: 27. Late twenties.
[00:15:33] Speaker C: Late twenties.
[00:15:34] Speaker B: Late twenties is when. Yeah, life's been overall good. A few. Few hard knocks or a few hard
[00:15:39] Speaker C: knocks, but nothing, you know?
Yeah, I always kind of landed on my feet and had traveled a bit, lived in England, lived in Australia, working, living.
And now I was back to Canada, in Vancouver, met this girl, fall in love.
Three months into the relationship, she gets a cancer diagnosis.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: So this, this is your thing. You had a friend.
[00:16:01] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:16:01] Speaker B: Your partner?
[00:16:02] Speaker C: Yeah, well, now we're close friends, but yes, my partner at the time.
And it was just like three months into a relationship.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: Oh, wow.
[00:16:10] Speaker C: You know, and just a slap in the face, kind of like you're just like, wow, okay, real life. So we came down here and just met and learned and focused on, like, her health and using technology, using obviously the wonderful plants here, the fungi here, the people, the Methods of practice, the ceremonies, all of it.
And meanwhile I'm flying back and forth to Vancouver to, you know, to also
[00:16:39] Speaker B: regulate the other companies.
[00:16:40] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. So it was like jungle and then public markets, this, you know, weird kind of coexisting world.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: And if I'm not mistaken, you also created some pretty impressive applications for the healthcare system, right?
[00:16:54] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:16:54] Speaker B: Tell us about that.
[00:16:55] Speaker C: Yeah, so that was. So the company was, was Smart Nurse and the overall software was called Mosaida. At the end of the day it was Mob Safety and then Mosaida Mobile Secure Data. So it was how do you have a fleet of people? This was nurses to be able to go out into the community and to connect with people and to basically monitor their health and well being.
So that's where it really think the world's kind of were colliding for me and in a good way.
And that was. I've kind of never looked back. It's always been health and technology.
Okay. Even after that company went public, you know, sold did really well.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: Smart Nurse.
[00:17:36] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. The actual, the company, the ticker was Mosaida.
But Smart Nurse was our big product.
[00:17:42] Speaker B: Correct. Okay.
[00:17:43] Speaker C: And so that was, that was a time to reflect, pause and reflect and say, is this, do I want to continue? Like I've done it, you know, got the check mark, now what do I want to do?
[00:17:56] Speaker B: And this was all around just before your former partner got the cancer diagnosis. Right.
[00:18:01] Speaker C: She'd already had. No, she had it. She had it. Yeah. So it was like all going all at the same time. Yeah, it was one big beautiful mess.
And that's just, it's so amazing in life when you look back and you see like it almost makes sense.
[00:18:15] Speaker B: It just does seem like such a beautiful mess in the time, at the time.
[00:18:18] Speaker C: It's stressful and it's scary and it's everything but it's just so meant to be, you know? You know, in a way, but only in, in hindsight. You know, too many people, I think, try to chart their path. Yeah. Which you can do to a certain extent, but it's, you've got, you know, all the other things going on.
[00:18:35] Speaker B: The mystery counterbalance of surrendering and, and flow to happen. Right.
[00:18:41] Speaker C: You got it. And kind of to your, to your show's name. Lead with heart. You know, it's sometimes you, you kind of have to lean into that and, and just go with it. Go with what feels right.
[00:18:52] Speaker B: Well, it sounds like you would have had to embody that with that scenario where you've got a Successful company going and then your partner ends up needing the support she needs and to take the leap of faith to come down to Costa Rica and really focus in on her healing. Right. That was a heart centered move.
And even though you came down for her, you got touched by this.
I want to circle it back to you for this section which is just say, yeah, tell us, you know, and I want you to bring us forward to what you're doing now with wake.
But yeah, what happened as you were down here and she's going through her healing process, you're going through your own or.
[00:19:27] Speaker C: Yeah, I think I was.
We met, it was over on, in Puerto Viejo. It was a wonderful doctor from the U.S. greg, and he had some technological devices, some machines.
I won't get too deep into all of them, but it really, that was kind of a physical manifestation of what I was kind of doing. You know, just running around trying to do things with her. And so I was like, wow, this machine can monitor you can see certain things going on and then can actually help.
And obviously it's not easily available. But that really connected things for me and I had this cool technological piece of equipment and then I had the effect that I could see on somebody I cared for.
So that's where the world's really kind of tied together.
And it was just, let's go deep, let's find out more about how this works, why it works, who built it, you know, why we can't get access to it, these kinds of things.
And really just around accessibility. Because we were, I was working online, I could travel, you know, we could leave Canada, but it's not always that easy for people. And so it was always the accessibility thing for me and just kind of fast forwarding to the psychedelic world. It's, it's accessibility to me.
You know, it's, it's too often it's too expensive in time and money for people to be able to, to explore, which is unfortunate because then they end up not really having a choice. They are just, you know, given the solution rather than like have an option.
So that's always driven my, like my building of things is how, how to kind of evenly distribute it. How can we make something that's adjustable and.
[00:21:27] Speaker B: Yeah, and also like you said that the moment of seeing the match of the technology with someone that you really cared about kept inspiring you. So is that really inspiration for wake and help our viewers understand what, what is wake?
[00:21:37] Speaker C: Yeah. So WAKE is how do you, how do you quantify and how do you provide psychedelic access to people in a safe environment, in a legal jurisdiction and not make it cost the world.
That was really the genesis of it.
I had been working, continue to work in the medical field and the medical research field software that I built was used for medical clinical trials. So I really got a good deep dive on how do clinical trials work business wise, actual the makeup of a study, how do you recruit, how do you do this study and then what's the business behind this and how does it work? And then you start to really realize how the sausage is made, so to speak, when it comes to medical products, medical compounds.
So I thought, you know, I, I've seen this, these compounds, these, this fungi, these plants help, obviously my partner, but also just others.
But I know how the system's built and I know how they're not really going to get the, the light of day because they're not going to get the trials that are, that are required for medical to, to be able to suggest it.
So how do you circumvent that was really my thinking. And how do we use the same technology, use the same scales and tools as the, you know, the traditional world, the conventional world to give these compounds kind of a fair shot at being kind of reviewed by society.
So if you're using the same scales, like the PHQ9 is very commonly used for depression, right.
That's used in, you know, a new depression drug, antidepressant. They'll, they'll obviously do that, scale that, the questionnaire and then they'll do it afterwards and they'll try and chart that this is working.
So why not use that in, in the psychedelic world.
[00:23:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:37] Speaker C: And, and the gad7 and we could go on and on, but how do we leverage, how do we just allow for these plants and these fungi and these methods, how do we give them like a better shot at being taken seriously? That was the genesis of wake.
[00:23:52] Speaker B: Okay. Wow. Wow. Yeah. And that resonates with me. One of my personal brand taglines is ancient modern, ancient wisdom meets modern science.
Yeah, exactly right. And I really do think there's such a beauty and a power in each of them.
And so I love what you're doing with WAKE because also I probably not as efficient geek as you are, but I have a little bit of a geek in me, Nick. And he loves technology and he loves the metrics. And that was something I enjoyed about my doctoral studies, was being able to see like, wow, we can actually start to quantify these elements of, for example, human soul. What is that? It's a big esoteric conversation that some people believe in, some don't from the science side, to implement and integrate that nerdiness is, I would argue that, you know, being able to be in touch with our polyvagal nervous system, the original calm, super calm connected place inside of us, that's soul power. That's what people talk about when they say, well, here my soul feels this, right?
So all I'm getting at is, Sam, I'm with you in this idea that we are in this beautiful time where we can actually use technology to help advance understandings of psychology, spirituality, of course, the medical field that's been happening for a long time. And all of that weaves together this, this notion of ancient wisdom and modern science both have their strengths. So I'm glad you're on that same frequency. I'm glad you're on that same path. When we get back, guys, from this break, we're going to dive deeper into Nick's story, understanding about the lotus, the art of transformation, and diving in on how Nick has made that happen in his life to bring himself to where he is now and where he's headed. So stay tuned here on LEAD with heart. We'll be right back.
[00:25:37] Speaker A: We'll be right back with more insights, stories and practices to help you lead from your whole self. This is Lead with Heart on NOW Media Television.
Leadership isn't just about decisions. It's about presence, compassion and courage.
I'm Dr. Jesse Hanson, somatic psychologist and healer. And on Lead with Heart, we explore
[00:26:02] Speaker B: what happens when we lead with awareness,
[00:26:04] Speaker A: compassion and the body in mind.
From brain health to relational intelligence, from trauma informed leadership to embodied teams, each episode reveals a deeper way to lead.
Lead with Heart is airing now on NOW Media tv, because the greatest leaders just guide people.
[00:26:24] Speaker B: They awaken them.
And we're back.
[00:26:28] Speaker A: I'm Dr. Jesse Hansen, and you're watching Lead With Heart on NOW Media Television. Let's continue embracing leadership with presence and purpose.
[00:26:37] Speaker B: Welcome back to lead with heart. I am your host, Dr. Jesse Hanson. And in this segment, we're going to dive deeper into the process called the lotus. Lotuses actually grow out of crap. They don't have a great upper upbringing, they don't have a great chance. And yet somehow they become beautiful. So today we're here with Nick Murray, creator of Wake and many other things. I want to talk to you, Nick, about how you've grown lotuses yourself, how you've seen that happen, this process of, you know, biggest often when I've asked as a world bridger myself, clinical psychologist as well As a retreat facilitator and holistic healer of sorts of that, you know, I've been asked to break it down simply. I would say that the mainstream, modern, more North American or developed approach to healing is the way out of this problem is to go around. It is to either drug it, numb it, dissociate from it, Netflix and chill it, cut it out in surgery, something like that. Whereas, even though there are many different indigenous paths and ancient paths other to each healing, one commonality that we see through more ancient intelligence is the way out of something is through it. And that means actually having to face the shadows, face the stuff we don't want to look at.
So I'm curious what this starts to bring up for you. Whether you're open to sharing anything about your own journey, whether you can talk about, you know, you've held space for a lot of people.
What do you know about growing lotuses?
[00:28:05] Speaker C: What do I know about growing lotuses? Well, I like that you started that. It was that they're from manure because so are mushrooms and so are many things.
[00:28:15] Speaker B: So many.
[00:28:17] Speaker C: There's.
And I like that you touched on how our society deals with things because they don't deal with things because there's more money and not dealing with it.
So I guess early on in my life, I kind of realized a little more than the average kid. I guess I was always one to deal with it, but also to look at an issue from every angle possible, meditate on it. I mean, for me, meditating as a kid was like literally just sitting down in the bathtub shower with it going down. I named it a bower.
Should have trademarked it, but that was my meditation time.
[00:28:58] Speaker B: What did you name it?
[00:28:59] Speaker C: Bower Bath and Shower.
[00:29:00] Speaker B: Bath and shower Hour.
[00:29:01] Speaker C: You got a bower?
[00:29:02] Speaker B: The Bower Meditation.
[00:29:04] Speaker C: Yes, exactly.
It's.
It's amazing because the longer you don't deal with something, the more anxiety builds up. And then the more anxiety, the more vices take a hold of you.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:20] Speaker C: And so it's. It's easier said than done. But dealing with something, whether it's an awkward conversation, lots of hard work, whatever it is, is overall less anxiety producing than not dealing with, avoiding it. Right. And maybe I'll go down some rabbit holes. But what I started to do, because I am a procrastinator, was just tackle that issue and look at the top. Right. Because I'm always on my computer and what time is it?
And then stay as focused as I can on that task. Easier said than done. Again.
And then once I've finished it, look up, back up at the clock and almost like laugh at myself for how long I've procrastinated and how many usually minutes it took.
[00:30:06] Speaker B: It actually took care of that. Yeah. Take care of that thing you've been
[00:30:08] Speaker C: avoiding which is like cause and response, like you know, pain and response kind of, you know, circle where eventually you're just like, I'm just going to take care of it because it's going to be 10 minutes of, of just, you know, writing that email I don't want to write or whatever it is rather than, you know, laying in bed being like, oh, I didn't do that thing or so I know that was kind of a rabbit hole.
[00:30:29] Speaker B: No, no, that's a great example.
[00:30:30] Speaker C: It's how I've, I've kind of. Because we all deal with things on a daily basis and, or don't deal with them, but they carry on to the next day. And the anxiety and just that like self defeating feeling, it'll, it'll just constantly eat at you. And regardless of your protocols and your ceremonies and the default mode network getting shut down, there's still a base bedrock.
[00:30:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:57] Speaker C: And that bedrock, if you're not creating then you're just kind of ruminating on past failures and that.
Yeah, that can be like a kind of a battery acid to the soul in a way.
[00:31:13] Speaker B: No, not a rabbit hole at all. It's great to hear you say, you know that the more we avoid, the more anxiety comes up. The more that comes up, the more vices take over.
I often challenge people to say, you know, when you hear yourself thinking the word anxiety, I can't tell you as a psychologist how many times I've heard people come in self diagnosing. I've got anxiety, I'm anxious. Okay, tell me about it. And like, well I just laying in bed and crying and da da da. I'm like, well actually that's, that's not anxiety, that's depression first of all. So that's my first note is that the word anxiety has become a major umbrella word to mean almost anything in today's society. So what I often challenge people with is like don't use the word where you hear yourself say it, rewind, don't do that and actually say what you are feeling because usually it is either. I have observed that when people say anxious they're usually either under the experience of fear and, or anger, sometimes sadness, but usually fear and anger. And so it's like, all right, if we can recognize that it's not just anxiety. So I am avoiding something and because I'm avoiding it, I'm starting in afraid of the outcome. And maybe I'm getting angry at myself for not just writing the email or I'm getting angry at the people on the other side of the email because I'm not really addressing what it is.
And then so from that process of not just anxiety, but of having unprocessed emotions, unexpressed emotions, then the vices come out, which I often call these. The crazy kids inside of us. Okay, we all have them. No, no, no denying it. In from the imaginal world. They can be the, you know, the neglected inner child. They can be. You know, I've worked a lot with people suffering from addiction. The person that you know is in that boat, they would never, they would always admit in sobriety or clear headedness. Of course I don't want to do that. I know it's not good for me. But this part heart takes me over and that, that process of takeover, that process of feelings, of I'm doing something I wish I wasn't. A vice is the direct byproduct of unexpressed emotion from the byproduct of avoidance.
So for whatever it's worth, it was not a rabbit hole. I think it was a great example. I'm curious in that same light if we can agree on that.
Tell us about what you've seen working with other people. You've now held special space for a lot of people through what you do now.
What have you seen there in terms of how is it to watch them, how is it to start to pick up on maybe algorithms or how you see people awakening or healing?
Wow.
[00:33:45] Speaker C: It's been an amazing journey. We've had around 500 people come through our retreats over the last five years.
All types of people, all different countries.
I was actually looking at the data and it's been 2/3 male and average age is 44.
And now we definitely started with a athlete. Head trauma, traumatic brain injury, focus.
Which does bring more NHL players, NFL players, ufc, boxing.
Just the makeup of our sports world.
So perhaps that's why. Perhaps it's because males are more open to trying new wild things. Yeah, yeah. So who knows why? But that's the data.
Where do I start? You know, we've had such amazing people. Like everybody who's come through, they come through not as a stranger because you've done some, some prep with them, some meetings, but physically you haven't met them before.
One thing it doesn't really kind of doesn't matter your body mass index, your height.
When it comes to some of the plant and fungi world, it's much more around the brain and the receptor sites.
That was an interesting one. You kind of think of other things like alcohol and it's like, okay, big guy needs big beer.
Not accurate.
In the plant, in the fungi world, they need to be very respected, of course, but how safe they can be, how protective they can be, how intelligent, how inherently safe.
[00:35:32] Speaker B: I'm so glad you brought up that word safety. That's actually even in the neuroscience research, that is the key ingredient for neuroplasticity, for the ability to really reprogram reprocess things.
It could be perfect execution of medication, words, whatever, but if they don't, if a person doesn't feel safe, the nervous system just does not want to bend.
So I'm glad you recognize that. And that's a big part of what you guys focus on, of course, is safety. Yeah.
[00:35:58] Speaker C: 100%.
[00:35:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:59] Speaker C: Yeah. Because we're only able to be with these people for so long, usually only four to five days.
And safety and trust and is. Is paramount.
[00:36:10] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:10] Speaker C: As you said, it's. It's kind of, you know, not worth doing. If they don't feel that way, the body's not going to really resonate.
So.
[00:36:18] Speaker B: And I think too, what you're doing with the, the left brain and the technology and the medical side of things, that also helps bring safety. It's like, okay, wait, you're actually stat tracking me. You're getting pre and post measurements, all of this kind of stuff. Right. That actually builds safety as well as leading with the heart and just being a genuine person.
[00:36:37] Speaker C: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah, all of it.
And so we've taken blood pressures, we've taken brain EEGs, we've done FNIRs, which is a kind of very cool new method of doing a brain scan pre and post.
A really good friend, Riley Cote, has been along the journey. There's photos of him wearing like every iteration of hardware on his, on his head that we've tried out.
And what have I learned? The one amazing thing is that. And back to safety is that a lot of people come down and they're on SSRIs or SNRIs, antidepressants. And a lot of the time now everything is reviewed by a doctor and we try and wean the people off, but we don't say go cold turkey.
You know, some places say that, but you, you can't have a toxic effect.
So if they're On Prozac, let's say, very popular, you know, from when we were younger, it was the big drug.
It's not, it's going to take more.
[00:37:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:46] Speaker C: It's not going to be, you know, put you into the.
[00:37:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:49] Speaker C: So it's, it's an interesting. There's so many misconceptions and misnomers that need to be dispelled. And through proper research, we will. But at the same time, the anecdotal, let's call it, is powerful and is helpful.
And then also just how many people are just trying to. Trying to find their path. And we don't have like a shared resource of protocols, of therapies, of compounds, of, you know, a work plan basically for a patient to follow.
So you have places like we started in Jamaica where everything's legal, but at the same time, none of the centers were sharing, you know, for.
[00:38:32] Speaker B: It's. It's so amazing what you're doing with wake because it does. It gives that groundedness to anything that. That is sort of an alternative, holistic approach is under scrutiny. So what you're building is a way to help legitimize that as well as to be. To be fair, across the board. Board. You know, maybe there are some alternative therapies that aren't actually, like, don't actually track when you do all the metrics on them. So I think what you're up to is beautiful here. Nick and I appreciate everything you're sharing. We do. Got to take a quick break here. When we get back, we're going to be discussing the collective wisdom that can be extracted from everything Nick's sharing. So stay tuned. We'll be right back here on Lead with Heart. Thank you.
[00:39:12] Speaker A: We'll be right back with more insight stories and practices to help you lead from your whole self. This is Lead with Heart on NOW Media Television.
Leadership isn't just about decisions. It's about presence, compassion, and courage.
I'm Dr. Jesse Hanson, somatic psychologist and healer. And on Lead with Heart, we explore
[00:39:37] Speaker B: what happens when we lead with awareness,
[00:39:39] Speaker A: conflict, compassion, and the body in mind.
From brain health to relational intelligence, from trauma informed leadership to embodied teams, each episode reveals a deeper way to lead.
Lead with Heart is airing now on NOW Media tv. Because the greatest leaders don't just guide
[00:39:58] Speaker B: people, they awaken them.
And we're back.
[00:40:03] Speaker A: I'm Dr. Jesse Hanson, and you're watching Lead with Heart on Now Media Television.
Let's continue embracing leadership with presence and purpose.
[00:40:12] Speaker B: Welcome. We are here on Lead with Heart and I'm joined By Nick Murray. Thank you again for being here. It's my pleasure. This final segment is about extracting the wisdom or grabbing the ripe fruits of this harvest. You've shared a lot with us. You've shared. I'd say the big theme I'm taking from is this integration of health and technology, which is extremely important in this.
I don't know if you know, I actually co founded mentalhealth.com with another other beautiful souls a couple years ago. And this year we're really going to look to advance it. And one of the key tenets is repurposing the very technology that has been used for disconnection, dissociation and disembodiment, repurposing all of that for healing and connection.
[00:40:55] Speaker C: Excellent.
[00:40:55] Speaker B: And I feel like you are definitely a part of that movement.
And so as we look at this final section, Nick, I want to work together to extract. Extract the wisdom for our viewers so you guys can understand what are the benefits of integrating health and technology?
What are the elements that come from your personal story of following your heart even when you had easy paths the other way? So I'm curious, Nick, as you have a chance to reflect on all this with me, what wisdom are you aware of inside of you right now? What's coming through in terms of just what you've lived through?
[00:41:31] Speaker C: I think everybody's different. So this is my take, but my take is that if you don't measure it, then it's an old adage, but if you don't measure it, you can't manage it. If you don't measure it, then it's harder to know that it's working in a way. But I say that as a person that has dove into these worlds and I wasn't managing or measuring and I became a believer. So it's not about just becoming a believer, but it's depending on where you're at in your life. How do you chart a path to where you want to get to?
And for me, technology is very helpful in quantifying that.
And so we, we include it in our protocol at the clinical retreats.
Not just because of the safety element, not just because of the studying and trying to find the unknown unknowns, but really giving people something quantifiable. Like here. Here is. Here's a brain scan prior to your sessions, and here's after. Here's your heart rate, here's your blood pressure, your sleep. All of these help to keep you on your path because it's not just, I think I feel better, I think I slept Better these, these things that just help and, and they're just a, another little data point, just another piece of the equation. But that's one of the things I've learned on this journey and I do want to share it. And it's not something that costs a lot of money or you have to go to a place. It's just, it's basically keeping yourself accountable and using technology to, to help you do that.
[00:43:08] Speaker B: And I find too that. No, I think that's a great piece of wisdom of, of, you know, you said, what was it that old adage to if you want to measure it, to manage it. Something like that.
[00:43:17] Speaker C: Yeah. If you don't measure it, you, you
[00:43:18] Speaker B: can't manage it, you can't expect to manage it. Right. And even though, yeah, especially as, as a more holistic oriented psychologist, I, I admit I have had personal resistance to bringing in too much data points or things like this, to the, the craziness of emotional experiences. And yet, you know, that was probably from my own stuff, from my childhood in that perspective because now here I am in my coming into my late 40s and I, I fully advocate for everything you're saying and I believe that you're absolutely right. And, and I would say maybe not only that being able to manage it, but it is that, that call it proof and that is the, the cold hard truth of this reality we live in now in 2026 is that it's statistics and metrics and data driven practices that drive everything. And so even for me, admittedly, as much as I love getting into all of that holistic stuff, it's very satisfying to see the metrics and the data. And that's what I love about, I think it's a lot of the products you use and the same tech you're referencing, but quantum physics, neuroscience and elements, the quantum mechanics that can be pulled from that, they are the sciences that we need to be able to measure the levels of healing that we're capable of now. So long story short, I think that there is a wisdom in saying for today's world it is beautiful to integrate health and technology and yet, you know, not overly lean into. I've also seen the scenario where. Here's a quick one. I used to work at Passages Malibu and I would people come in and they don't know it's addiction treatment center. And so people are coming in in pretty rough shape. And I believe there's always, you know, traumatic underpinnings to why people end up abusing, using substances. So they come in and this was almost 20 years ago. So back then it took two weeks to get a blood chemical analysis done.
And so they would. But that was part of the pitch is like, we do blood chemical analysis. And I would see this pattern, Nick, again and again where people come in and they would be so dedicated to doing the work and they would start to churn and dig deep and look at their childhood and look at all these elements.
And then that would be the first two weeks of usually a 30 day program.
And then two weeks in, they'd get their biochemical measurements back and it would show all of the biochemical imbalances. And they would come into session and be like, ah, you know what, I got it all figured out now. I've had brain chemistry imbalance. Here it is. All I need to do is take this supplement and do this and I'm out.
And I'm like, ah, this totally backfired. Like, the technology here was not to give you a copy.
And it wasn't until years later, when I really got deeper into my studies, that learned that actually when you get into quantum mechanics, it is our consciousness that is creating the biochemical cocktails in our brain. So of course, if any of us are in a dysregulated place where we're making crappy decisions and putting whatever it is, whether it's illegal substances or just too much Netflix and chill, whatever the thing is we're doing, it is those decisions that are creating the biochemical measurements. And so I would always then work with them, be like, yes, this is great, great, we got the metrics, but that doesn't mean you stop doing the work. And we can continue to look at these correlations and notice how you get yourself and your mind and your heart cleaned up. And yeah, your brain chemistry is going to show the results and absolutely take the supplements, maybe even take some psychopharmacological medications to help counterbalance. But be careful of that pitfall, which is forgetting that, oh, it's the mixture of health and technology, it's the mixture of the deep work with psychopharmacology that can make lasting changes.
[00:46:46] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you need to focus on the core, the base, the foundation, and not just put like, you know, paint on
[00:46:54] Speaker B: the outside and not get, you know, be careful, be cautious not to get too enraptured by the medical and the data tracking because it has its place in it. But it is a. Those measurements are a symptomology or a more superficial layer of the onion of how we are actually.
[00:47:12] Speaker C: I agree.
[00:47:13] Speaker B: Built right. Yeah, yeah. So that, that resonates with you and
[00:47:15] Speaker C: that's how you 100% like we know ourselves. But at the same time, it's so easy to fall off the wagon when, when you're just like. Well, maybe like when you ask somebody how, how's your sleep for the last week?
[00:47:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:47:27] Speaker C: Unless they had a terrible night. Yeah, it's been good. And then. But if you look at the data of an OURA ring, let's say you can see certain things, things and that can inform and that can kind of help.
So it's definitely not taking it as gospel, the data, but it's also supplementally, it's very useful, very helpful.
[00:47:45] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely, man, Absolutely. I think another piece of wisdom I want to draw on before we wrap this episode is around.
Yeah, just that part of your story where you shared that you led with heart to bring your, at that time, your partner down here to Costa Rica to do that healing, but that her healing has become your healing. And then you've brought in other people, including Riley Cote and tons of other amazing athletes and everything into your network, helping facilitate their healing. And so in the nerdy psychobabble world, we would call this the relational field. And so I guess, yeah, to me that's a piece of wisdom that you're bringing forward in your shares, is that, you know, please allow ourselves to stay connected to those that we love and trusting that, you know, when I have this saying, when any of us work, we all work. Or when anyone's healing, we're all healing. Right. And I guess by that same concept, when anyone's hurting, we're all hurting whether we want to feel it or not.
[00:48:39] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:48:40] Speaker B: So, yeah, I just wonder how that is hearing for you. You agree with that? Any other polish on that wisdom around just sort of the relational, communal healing?
[00:48:49] Speaker C: Well, I think you nailed it. I think we're in a society of individualism and, and buy the fix, buy the cure, buy the person to do the job, but the element of community, from being a little one all the way up to the end of this physical life, it's community, friendships, relationships is what it is. Whether that's with a human, with an animal, with nature.
It's this thing we can't see or touch sometimes. And then we don't take it as.
As valuable as it is.
[00:49:26] Speaker B: We've.
[00:49:27] Speaker C: Yeah, it's the old pass it on kind of way of looking at life.
I think we've gone to the. It's just a pendulum swinging, isn't it? So we've gone to this pendulum of you know, don't try and fix yourself. Don't be so silly. You know, there's experts for that to now, you know, maybe, maybe the, the old, you know, our ancestors knew a little bit more than we thought or we gave them credit for.
A village does raise a child and unfortunately, you know, inner city, it can go badly, but it's still a village raising that child, even if it's not in a very loving way.
[00:50:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:08] Speaker C: So I think we're learning a lot more.
The technologies that we invented to connect us have divided us but, but they still can connect us.
[00:50:17] Speaker B: And that's what we're working on here. Right. With this conversation, with what you're doing with Wake, with what I'm doing with mental health.com I think so be able to repurpose that technology. And the last quick wisdom on that relational piece is just that so many if not all of our traumas happen in some kind of relationship. Usually our family could be a breakup from a partner, an ex or whatever. So that's the other reason why I think even with the work you're doing and bringing people together, together, you know, it's, it's in order to get access to some of those hurt, traumatized places that happened in relationship, we need to be in a healthy relationship to access that. Right?
[00:50:53] Speaker C: Certainly.
[00:50:54] Speaker B: Yeah. So no, this is beautiful, man. I really appreciate everything you, you've brought so much, so much beauty to the show today. I want to make sure that our viewers know how to keep in touch with you. So please let them know. How do they find you out here in this wild, wild digital world?
[00:51:06] Speaker C: In the interwebs, Wake.net is our Wake Network website and Advanced Care.com is the more software medical side of things.
[00:51:15] Speaker B: Okay, so wake.netadvanced care.com you got it. You'll find me beautiful.
[00:51:20] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:51:21] Speaker B: Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate it.
[00:51:23] Speaker C: Pleasure's mine.
[00:51:24] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you everyone for tuning in. This has been Lead With Heart with your host, Dr. Jesse Hansen. Stay tuned for more authentic, vulnerable conversations with amazing leaders so we can continue to learn together and grow together.
Take good care.
