Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Welcome to Lead with heart. I'm Dr. Jesse Hanson, and today we explore the essence of leadership beyond strategy and status. You're watching now Media Television.
Hello and welcome to Lead with Heart, where we explore the inner journeys that shape authentic leadership and human connection and lasting impact. I'm your host, Dr. Jesse Hanson, and today's conversation is one that speaks directly to the unseen experiences many leaders carry beneath the surface. I'm happy to be joined today by Carl Lemieux. He's the founder of Minds Matter, a registered workplace psychologist, executive coach, and co author of Vertical Growth. With more than 35 years of experience across industries, Carl's works at the intersection of leadership and mental health, neuroscience and human development, helping leaders thrive not just professionally, but personally.
So in this first segment, we're going to go back to the beginning, before titles, before you were who you are today and before you've created all the beautiful things you've created. Thank you for being here, Carl.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Thank you for having me, Jesse. Pleasure to be here.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: Honored. Honored.
The first segment is really just about a chance to let me better understand and our viewers understand, who were you? Where did you come from before you became who you are today? As much as you're open to it, opening up about childhood, what are some of the dynamics that you grew up into that have helped shape you?
[00:01:42] Speaker B: I think there's a deep. Well, I came from a challenged family with an alcoholic father, which created a lot of sensitivity for me. So I became an observer, and I think I became a psychologist very young.
So that path appeared really normal for me to take on to understand human beings. Obviously, I was doing it at that time to understand myself and go through my own trauma, go through my own emotional challenges that I didn't know how to process.
So that brought me into psychology initially at a very young age, like very early 20s. I'm saying, who the heck am I to help other people on their challenges when I don't have my act together?
[00:02:22] Speaker A: So.
[00:02:22] Speaker B: So I quickly went into organizational psychology and workplace psychology. So I went on that route.
[00:02:30] Speaker A: And why'd you do this with your hand? What does that mean?
[00:02:32] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's interesting you notice that it took me off my path because I've gone back on my path decades later.
So it was the thing to do, feeling like an imposter to be helping people under Meltan. Well, not even Meltan. Yeah. Mental wellness and illness at times.
I was still trying to get my act together at that young age, so I felt I would not have the skill sets nor the posture to show up in the right way. And workplace psychology excited me. It seemed like a natural blend. I had a business fiber to me in there, so I just quickly got into that. And then right after fell into one of the world's largest accounting firms as a management consultant and learned to trade. Felt like an imposter for a. I.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: Did an imposter there as well.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: Again, came back because you're coming out as, you know, a relatively high end consultant with no business background, helping, restructuring. First job I had was restructuring one of the biggest companies in Canada and you just don't even know what a company is.
So the MBA reassured me, gave me some skill sets, and then it just kept going from there. On a train, you know, you're just on a train track, forgetting yourself. Quite honestly, forgetting who I was and just delivering what society expected of me. Yeah.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: Well, thanks for being vulnerable about your father. And you know what that must have been like. A lot of my viewers know that I've had the experience on A and E's intervention. I don't know if a lot of them know it's out there. I've done other interviews where I openly admit too, that though I did not have an alcoholic father, I did have a period in my early 20s where I was abusing substances.
And so I know it from the inside out. And I especially know it from working with thousands of clients now that have had that experience.
I just wonder if we could slow down a little bit on that part. And, you know, a. Just obviously, first of all, compassion, it's never a fun or easy path for anyone.
But I wonder just if you could share a little bit of how that may be impacted, whether it's the imposter part or the move into psychologists. Another simpler way of saying it is healer. So I'm guessing that when your father was out of balance and his shadow was probably dominating the house, is my assumption fair that you stepped into the role of healer or savior?
[00:04:54] Speaker B: Just a good active listener at that time. A good active listener on the imposter side, a little parenthesis here. I meet a lot of executives, a lot of leaders.
And you'd be blown away by how many leaders have the imposter syndrome.
My co author, Michael Bunting, on the book that we shared together, he did interviews with the leaders to do the book. And I forget the numbers, but it was like in, I think it was in over 80% where he was hearing that notion of imposter. So when you're in that imposter syndrome, you think you're alone. And you got this image to maintain. But once you start being in that world, you realize you're not alone. But back then I did feel I was alone.
[00:05:33] Speaker A: You didn't know that there were so many other.
[00:05:35] Speaker B: No, no, I didn't know. I thought I was the only one who didn't know what he was doing.
So yeah, so that, that, that.
So I don't probably my family had to do with it. I'm the youngest. So you know, you, you always feel a little out of balance relative to.
[00:05:49] Speaker A: To your older siblings, older siblings who.
[00:05:52] Speaker B: Have just have more experience and stuff. So you know, quite honestly, I've looked at that quite a bit in therapy and other modalities and yeah, that, that just carried me through my, my early adulthood in a good way because it pushes you to further your knowledge, to keep that creative edge and it creates stress. And we know stress in a moderate amount is a good thing, but when it's sustained in time, then it leads to burnout, which I actually had a first burnout in my studies when I was becoming a psychologist.
There's so many changes. A true outright burnout, you know, not knowing what to put on your toast in the morning, that would create anxiety.
[00:06:37] Speaker A: One thing you said on the imposter piece, yeah, maybe there was something to do with the alcoholic father, those dynamics, but I think being the youngest in the family maybe has the most to do with it.
And also something, an insight that came to me while you said that when you acknowledged the statistic that roughly 80 ish percent of leaders have that I feel like there's also something in it as you were growing and rising and stepping into bigger and bigger arenas, meeting, you know, it's one thing to think you're an imposter when you're going through the grocery store checkout line, that you're not good enough to be there. It's another thing to think you're an imposter when you're standing in front of some very high powered people. So giving compassion to you to say, you know, that's also part of your imposter syndrome had to do with growth.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: Edge that you were hitting and I was stretching myself. So I've always been ahead of the game. I was always the youngest in the room, doing whatever I was doing at the time. Now I'm the old oldest one in the room. But that shifted at one point.
Yeah, so you're always carrying this Persona, you're always carrying this mask, which many, many people do. Yeah, that's a lot of the work I do. Now is helping people take those masks off. But from the inside I've lived that. The pressure of putting on that mask and feeling that if you don't, well, your livelihood is questioned, your identity is questioned.
[00:07:50] Speaker A: Livelihood, identity, reputation, everything's at science, right?
[00:07:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:54] Speaker A: You said something else so interesting, Carl. That is another one of the themes that I believe in in my own healing practice as well as on the show is continually re emphasizing the importance of bihemispheric brain activity, getting left and right brain flossing, that corpus callosum. And you know, to sit here with you knowing like highly identified as psychologists in my eyes, I see you as a leader for leaders. You're there to serve as a moral compass and a guidepost for them.
You also mentioned there in that getting to know you better, that you had time working much more corporately yourself as a trader. So I want to deepen on that because it's powerful. I think it's rare and it's a powerful gift when you as the one human you are are actually using both sides of your brain. So common it's in and even in my path, like I have been on the more right brained, artistic, creative, intuitive healer path most of my life.
So just to speak a little bit more about anything interesting in that time, but also can you highlight maybe just some of the magic that it feels like to be someone that knows how to do all these? Even if you felt a little bit like an imposter, you knew how to, you know, navigate a very left brain world of trading. But you also have that experience as a child of being sensitive to emotions. And here you are today, as you know, obviously a fully licensed practicing psychologist. You're holding an interesting dynamic that I think is not often seen.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: And just a slight correction, I wasn't a trader. I was more of a management consultant. So doing strategy work and I was a trader on my own actually. I've always been quite interested in the stock market and my father's stock broker. So I was trading but more on a personal level in organization. I was really coming in as a strategist, as a business consultant. But a very left brain, very left brain, very. Yeah, I was hired for my, for my knowledge.
I was hired for my skill sets and very left brain. And I would say I left well, I'd say my more intuitive side was the change management element when I'd be doing large restructurings or I also managed hospitals and worked in banks and things like that. So I think I had a very humanist side to it.
So that's probably the weaving. But I still say I was out of balance. I was much more intellectual in nature, in my reflexes, as a.
As a way of finding security. It's just an easier way to show up because the other one would bring up vulnerabilities. And that's something. Until you've done the work, you don't necessarily want to go to the vulnerability because you're afraid that's going to unravel it all, the imposter syndrome, the insecurities that are there. So you're showing up with a, you know, with a Persona. You're showing up with masks, playing with other people that are showing up with masks. It's just a big charade, but you're not quite realizing because you're inside of it.
[00:10:48] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: So it's entire until you get that waking up, that all these people are playing this charade. I'm certainly including myself in there.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: Yeah. No, thank you. And you brought the magic word of vulnerability here. And that was in the first episode. I talked a lot about brain, heart, coherence. I think there's another way to look at what we're talking about. If we're not leading with heart, it's because we're stuck in our mind. And I humbly admit I've had chapters like that, moments like that. I definitely know from working with tons of execs that that's basically where it feels like where we have to live in order to be successful there. And so part of the hopes in the show and our openness here is that inspiring more and more leaders to realize that it is okay to be vulnerable and that there's a whole new caliber of leadership that happens when brain, heart coherence comes.
So when we get back from this short break, in the next segment, Carl and I are going to go deeper into understanding who he is today and learning deeper about how he's got there. So please stay tuned to Lead with Heart here on NOW Media tv. We'll be right back.
We'll be right back with more insights, stories and practices to help you lead from your whole self. This is Lead with Heart on NOW Media Television.
Leadership isn't just about decisions. It's about presence, compassion, and courage.
I'm Dr. Jesse Hanson, somatic psychologist and healer, and on Lead with Heart we explore what happens when we lead with awareness, compassion, and the body in mind.
From brain health to relational intelligence, from trauma informed leadership to embodied teams, each episode reveals a deeper way to lead.
Lead with Heart is airing now on NOW Media tv. Because the Greatest leaders don't just guide people. They awaken now.
And we're back. I'm Dr. Jesse Hansen and you're watching Lead with Heart on Now Media Television. Let's continue embracing leadership with presence and purpose.
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Welcome back to Lead with Heart. I'm your host, Dr. Jesse Hanson. And today I'm being joined by by Carl Lemieux, a fellow healer and psychologist. And in the first segment, thank you so much for opening up about your childhood and your roots and how you've gotten to where you are. This segment's all about getting a chance to really better understand who you are today, how you got there. You mentioned the power of the imposter syndrome, what it is like being, you know, perhaps that was originated in being youngest born. There may be other pieces there. You went into the time of more left brain and you mentioned you did this with your hand and you're coming back. So yeah, just share more with myself and the viewers how you got from point A to point B and who you are today.
[00:14:21] Speaker B: With pleasure.
Yeah. So now the hand does come back where I just find life so perfectly orchestrated sometimes because one of the last big mandates I did was in a very large industrial mining company and I had the mandate to transform the overall culture. So we're talking about many tens of thousands of people across the world and the focus was on the whole health and safety. So how to really increase the health and safety in every nook and cranny of that company in Africa, Asia, everywhere. And we pulled it off to my amazement.
And we became best in the planet in terms of health and safety. And that required to change the mindsets of the leaders fundamental mindset where hurting people was sort of natural way of working to a mindset where not on my watch and I won't hurt one individual.
And as I was completing that mandate, I was getting pretty stressed because I was working really hard and traveling all over the place and I got into my own well being. So I started studying and just deep diving back into my initial passion for psychology. It was a personal project and going to the science of happiness and then going to behavioral and cognitive sciences and fell into mindfulness and started going to mindfulness meditation and becoming a mindfulness teacher.
And all of that was for myself. It was really just because I felt that to find my own balance and as I was finishing this cultural transformation on health and safety, I realized, heck, we could do this with well being and mindfulness and consciousness.
And that's when everything. That's when my path came back. That's when I.
[00:16:09] Speaker A: And roughly what age was that? How long ago?
[00:16:11] Speaker B: 50.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: 50.
[00:16:12] Speaker B: I'm 63 today, so that was about 13 years ago.
[00:16:14] Speaker A: Years ago, yeah.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: And my career was pretty well, you know, I could have taken. I could have retired at that point. So I was sort of at the end of a career.
But it just didn't make sense anymore just to work on the left brain type, intellectual type. That just didn't resonate. I could not do that anymore. I could not do any more strategic planning or reorganizing and stuff like that. My body just called for another kind of work.
And that's when I just totally restructured my life and went into bringing mindfulness into companies and.
[00:16:44] Speaker A: Yeah, and that was because of your own.
[00:16:48] Speaker B: My own practice, but not only my own practice. I could continued that. I enjoy skiing and other stuff. I don't bring that to the world.
I just felt organization needed to be there. Maybe another anecdote that was happening in organizations. I was doing strategic planning with executive teams and they could not slow down. They could not take the time to see what the future was bringing and how their current mindsets and business models were no longer serving the present and the future.
You talk about right brain and left brain, which is definitely a wonderful way to see the brain. I talk about prefrontal cortex and old limbic system, the mammalian system. And when stress takes over, then it literally shuts off access to the prefrontal cortex. We do not get as creative, as innovative. We do not have the capacity for perspective. And I always see my executive team teams unable to take the time required to revisit the environment in which you're evolving in. And that's what I'm saying. We got to bring this in organizations because they're going to hit a brick wall if we do not learn to generate greater self awareness, greater self regulation so that we could come out with more innovative and adaptive strategies. Because the world already 10 years ago was getting quite crazy. And it's only gotten crazy raise your sins. So that's what justified the swing back into Psychology and reintroducing pretty, you know, deep psychology in leadership development and organizational transformation.
[00:18:23] Speaker A: I love what you're saying. I'm a huge fan of and believer in mindfulness as the construct or the concept of somewhere to become more self aware. I wonder how this lands with you, Carl, is that, you know, as you know, my degree is neuropsychology. Very much body centered approach to psychology and even that word mindfulness, often if you play with it a little bit, it's full of mind.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:47] Speaker A: And that's one sort of curse or shadow element I've seen of the mindfulness practices is that people are very aware and they can track thoughts and yet they're not always tracking or understanding what's happening in the body or highlighting how much that is interconnected.
And so I'm wondering a. I see you're saying yes. So you hear me on that then knowing you agree there.
Tell me more about 50 Carl 50s Carl, did something have to do with this in terms of like embodiment or you know, like you said, you're kind of tapped out on thinking.
[00:19:22] Speaker B: Yeah. So great, great question. And we'll have to talk about Carlitz 60 to get into the somatic and body work because at 50 it was still around the mind but it was about having a better mastery of my mind.
So I even talk about mind training and I don't think there's a right or wrong answer. I think there are different ways to reach Rome and for some, especially in the business community, in organizations coming in through the mind and better understanding how the mind works, understanding how stress and excessive stress works, understanding how under meet.
[00:19:55] Speaker A: Them where they're at.
[00:19:56] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:19:56] Speaker A: Way easier to meet them there.
[00:19:57] Speaker B: Exactly. So there was a beautiful opening. I find I was precursor on the mindfulness front. We were in the early, you know, early consultants bringing mindfulness into companies. Then Covid hit in 2020 and that that gave an acceleration to that because people want to better learn how to manage stress, et cetera.
But taking it from the mind, that's where people are and they understand that.
And it's a wonderful segue because it's not one or the other. But I agree that a further level of transformation or another doorway for some or a new doorway for others, whether it's further or whether it's somatic work could be a right way in.
So I fully agree and I would say my work today is going the direction of somatics and I see mindfulness as a very strong foundation. Yeah. And we've made our way into organizations you know, we teach this in thousands and tens of thousands of people. Yeah.
[00:20:51] Speaker A: And you said something so spot on, which is it's so important to meet people where they're at. And so going into a corporation of a bunch of people that are hyper left brain active and asking them to do some of the stuff that I would probably want to ask them to do, I've learned too. I've had that blessing of working with these guys as well. And it's about meeting them where they're at. So mindfulness is a wonderful path.
I'm wondering, are you open to sharing here before we take our next break?
What happened in your life at that point that made you have that next level of awakening or get more clear?
[00:21:24] Speaker B: Well, the things that connecting the dot that I just mentioned earlier, my own self awareness, my own self regulation and the benefit it was having on my life. And I've got an attention deficit, a clinical attention deficit. So my mind goes all over the place. I definitely know what a scattered mind is.
So my ability to just refocus and realign myself before presentation, before whatever, giving a conference, anything else, making large decisions. So I just saw the huge impact it was having on myself. And once I got into that zone, I was observing it in others.
So that's what made me realize that we could silence. I'm writing a new book right now and the first section is about silencing the corporate mind. So how could we actually bring in the spaciousness.
[00:22:04] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: That we've lost in organizations? We don't even have a minute between one meeting and the other because we're jumping from one video call to another.
So it was just connecting dots. It's just like it just appeared evident that that was the next level of intervention organizations once that we've optimized resources, because the last decades were around optimizing physical, financial, human, technological resources.
And now it's about bringing back the human in that equation. It's no longer resources. Could we recreate space for the human? And when he has more he she has more spaciousness?
That's where we're starting to see beautiful.
[00:22:44] Speaker A: Things showing up whole different levels of leadership. Right. So I'm hearing that, yeah, it was partly again, your own personal journey and kind of getting, getting training, your own scattered mind, you started to realize, wow, that this is working for me. It could probably work for everyone else that is operating that way.
[00:23:01] Speaker B: Exactly. And I obviously went to see if there's any value in what I said. And I just realized this whole world of corporate mindfulness and I realized a lot of people were doing it.
[00:23:10] Speaker A: Yeah. And when we get back from this break, I want to talk more about one of the sayings I love to hear you say, which is conscious capitalism.
And so before we take this break though, I would love you, you mentioned a book. I'd love you to just take a moment to tell the viewers how they can keep in touch with you. Let them speak. Anything you want to speak about the new book that's coming or anything like that.
[00:23:28] Speaker B: That's really kind.
So Minds Matter with AN S. Minds Matter.com is the website so you'll pretty well see all we're doing there. There's probably a referencing of the book. So the book is called Vertical Growth that my co author, Michael Bunting, a best selling author on mindful leadership. So the Mindful Leader, he has a best selling a book on that. He invited me to collaborate on this one and yeah, and the new one is yet to come. It's probably called Bringing Soul to Business because that is being lost. So how do we bring back that humanity that's Soul to business.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: Beautiful. Soul to Business fits right in there with Conscious capitalism. And so yeah, I'm excited, excited to hear what's next from you so much. Thank you, Carl. And please stay tuned here on NOW Media tv. This is Lead with Heart. And we'll be right back.
We'll be right back with more insight stories and practices to help you lead from your whole self. This is Lead with Heart on NOW Media Television.
Leadership isn't just about decisions. It's about presence, compassion and courage.
I'm Dr. Jesse Hanson, somatic psychologist and healer. And on Lead with Heart we explore what happens when we lead with awareness, compassion and the body in mind.
From brain health to relational intelligence, from trauma informed leadership to embodied teams, each episode reveals a deeper way to lead.
Lead with Heart is airing now on NowMedia TV. Because the greatest leaders don't just guide people, they awaken them.
And we're back. I'm Dr. Jesse Hanson and you're watching Lead with Heart on Now Media Television. Let's continue embracing leadership with presence and purpose. Hello and welcome back to Lead with Heart. I AM your host, Dr. Jesse Hanson. We're going to continue our conversation with Carl Lemieux joining us here in the studio. Thank you so much for being here. This segment is is about the lotus and hopefully more and more people are listening and learning. Lotus is about taking mud and making something beautiful. And in us psychologists, we both know shadow work is the common language that's describing this this is an opportunity for you to practice what we preach and be vulnerable and.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: Just share with our viewers what do you know about this process from the inside out? What are you know if you're opening up about a story or case example from your own life where you've been able to transmit crap into fertilizer?
[00:26:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Been a lot of mud.
[00:26:07] Speaker A: Some mud, huh?
[00:26:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I'd say the last. And it's still obviously a work in progress, but I'd say that's the essence of the work I've been doing on myself.
And just going down into that place of vulnerability, how that not only lightens you up as a human being, I find that you just show up with a different posture.
So for me, it was just to go back into my insinceurities, just try to understand where they're coming from, why I would show up.
In my case, I'd say hiding myself behind my intellect, behind a very academic approach, having trouble to come down into more heartfelt expression of myself being able to do it hold space for others. But for me to actually show up with vulnerability, that was a difficult thing for me to do. I wanted to keep control, so I just took a lot of time to go through all of my own patterns. And that's where I used a lot of what we call behavioral cognitive sciences or also known as acceptance commitment therapy in the world of psychotherapy. But I've been using it as acceptance commitment training, where I actually have been using the work that I did on myself and brought that into organizations.
[00:27:29] Speaker A: Nice.
[00:27:30] Speaker B: So, yeah.
[00:27:31] Speaker A: And you said something cool like that was a reminder even for me, as much as I know this work as well. So often we hear shadow, shadow work, and we expect it's like, oh, some secret addiction or some big malfunction.
Sometimes our shadow can be, like you said, hiding behind your intellect, wearing a mask. The whole imposter thing circles back here. So I love that you're highlighting that that not the shadow doesn't always mean some dark secret. It can even be, you know, so often corporate execs or lawyers, doctors, they're so well rewarded for, you know, responsiveness, punctuality, all these things. But it equals being on all the time.
[00:28:11] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:11] Speaker A: And so there's a shadow in that because we're not really made to do that and be on every second.
So I like that you're bringing it forward, that, you know, reminding all of us that the shadow doesn't always mean dark in the corner. Sometimes the shadow is the way we put on a mask to Try to be presented some way.
[00:28:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:28] Speaker A: And you mentioned that acceptance and that work of therapy there.
[00:28:33] Speaker B: What?
[00:28:34] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm just curious if you have. If you're open to it, like an example of you mentioned the alcoholic father or different moments of, like, life. Can you think of one memory where, you know. And it may not be a specific memory, maybe it's thematic, but something where you were put in with, you know, some kind of. I call it malware, Some kind of negative, adaptive thought.
[00:28:53] Speaker B: A clear one for me, and I'm still working on it, is the need to be seen, the need to be loved, appreciated, the fear of being rejected, which would.
I would show up with, almost overzealous, always wanting to make sure everybody was okay. So there's this energy that comes with that. There's this clingy type of energy. There's this too much type of energy that could show up in that you're too much.
Yeah, well, and not only that, you actually show up as too much. You just want things. You just want things to work out so well. You're working harder than the client just because you want to be appreciated, you want to be loved, you want to be seen as relevant. And that was definitely shadow work for me. That was definitely coming from wounds and being able to liberate that over the years.
You show up in a way that you're not trying to solve. Your own discomforts and your own places.
[00:29:55] Speaker A: Where you need to be seen, need.
[00:29:56] Speaker B: To be seen, your own traumas. And by the way, as we know, traumas don't have to be, as Gabor Mate would state them, they're not all big T traumas. There's some small T traumas and we all have them. Yeah.
[00:30:07] Speaker A: And just highlight that quickly. Big T, small T for our viewers. So they know what you mean.
[00:30:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Because we tend to see trauma as somebody who's had a very rough childhood, somebody who's gone through addiction some. You know, that is sort of the out of the ordinary type of trauma that doesn't reflect the reality of the average person.
Now, the average person, we all have small traumas that could be something like being the youngest and not being heard at the kitchen table. As simple as that.
It could be being tallest in your class and being bullied for that, or the smallest thing. So all these things that I'm seeing today with clients, both on the leadership front and psychotherapy, that we just need to come back and listen to the voice on how we live that experience as a child.
So that's what I've been able to do not so much disclaim it on saying, oh, that's nothing. You had a, you know, your childhood wasn't that bad. There's tons of people had a worse childhood than you.
Moving away from that rationalization, which is more of a defense mechanism to rationalize it and to embrace and just liberate all of those conditionings that were or that were driving some behaviors that were no longer relevant. So I think that's the important part.
The shadow becomes a shadow when it's no longer serving you. So a lot of the work I've done on myself that I do with other people is let's define who we need to be today. Like, what's important for me today, who's important for me, what are my intentions at this point in my career.
Example for me until my 40s, to have a good career, feed my family, be successful. It was important for my ego. It was important that I look good.
I had the titles and I had the accomplishments, but that switched. So with different intentions came shadows that were now becoming apparent.
[00:31:56] Speaker A: Right.
[00:31:57] Speaker B: They served me up to 40, but they were no longer serving from 40 to 50.
[00:32:01] Speaker A: Now, I love that you said you started that segment with saying, and I'm still working on it now. The work is never done, and yet there are graduating landmarks. So it seems like, you know, from I'm extracting from your stories almost every decade there's these significant upgrades and more shadow being excavated and more light or consciousness or the truest parts of you coming forward. Yeah, I appreciate too you named the small T, big T. And my quick language, small. You know, big T is what most people think of as trauma, and it has to do with something that happens to the body.
And then small T trauma, also called developmental trauma, is something that happens to the psyche, to the emotions. And you mentioned simple things of being the tallest or the shortest in class, being the youngest or the oldest. I had all the responsibility.
One other key little piece that to me is so important in terms of hoping for people to better understand what helps a lotus grow from within us is, you said it. I won't get the verbatim, but more or less, it's so important to go back into that childhood experience and really feel it from there. Because it's very easy as an adult self to sit here and say, oh, yeah, it wasn't that bad. And the truth is, absolutely, there's 99% of the time, there's always someone who had it worse. But that does not take away the pain and the damage to the nervous system that we all go through. So I just, I love that you highlighted that because intel. And I know that from my own shadow work that I can talk about it until I'm blue in the face. I can journal about it, I can CBT at DBT it, all the cognitive approaches.
It's not until I use whatever somatic methodology, be that breathwork, be that ceremony, be that dancing, however it is to get in touch with remembering. Oh yeah, wow. Like for me, Carl, I'll tell you, one of mine is that I was, I guess you could say, like forcibly weaned at 1 years old due to a sinus infection. And at that time my mom did not want to continue to nurse. So when I couldn't breathe, she. She turned off the tap. And I get it now as an adult, of course, but it wasn't until some of my own deep work that I really realized, wow, as a little baby, that's like life. That's lifeblood. And to feel like I can't access that. I too am still working through that wound because I know. I'm humble enough to know it's never done. And yet the graduating landmark. So I love that you're bringing that forward with the importance of. Of being able to access not just mindfully, but body fully.
What was it really like to be the youngest in a family where the dad was checked out? You know, so. Yeah. Just curious. Yeah. What does that bring up in you as you.
[00:34:37] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting. See, and again, that work, I'm still befriending it.
To ask me that question, I'd have to really sit in it. What did it feel like? I think there was this contraction. There was this feeling of smallness, of not being seen.
[00:34:50] Speaker A: Not being seen, exactly.
[00:34:52] Speaker B: And not being heard. Because my mother was depressed. It's not because she has anything against me, but she was just not there. She was just blanked out.
And again, that's where the people pleasing comes in, where you're trying to get attention. You figure it must be because of me if I'm not getting attention. So these are all stuff that comes from the eyes and the body of a 5, 7 year old. Today you look at that and you could talk to my. I talked to my mother, says, no, of course I loved you. I was checked out.
[00:35:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:19] Speaker B: So you have to revisit those things.
And that's, that's where there is a cognitive element to it, where you need to make that connection.
[00:35:28] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:35:29] Speaker B: And I find the people I work with, it helps to make the connection.
[00:35:32] Speaker A: The cognitive, the cognitive connection first.
[00:35:35] Speaker B: Oh, there is.
[00:35:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:36] Speaker B: That's where it's coming from. Okay, now I get it. The healing process, part of it is by being able to name it. But I totally agree with what you're saying. I think the deep rooted cleansing and healing and befriending, all of that comes with more advanced type of modalities. And I know you've talked about psychedelics on this show before and somatic work. And there's a lot of cool approaches, even hypnosis. There's a lot of cool work being done right now in psychology that allows us to get. Get to a deeper place where we really start releasing those shadows to show up in a better, full version of ourselves. I want to say better version of version that was already there before it.
[00:36:16] Speaker A: Got hidden, before it got covered by shadows.
[00:36:19] Speaker B: Exactly. So very liberating.
[00:36:21] Speaker A: That's beautiful. And yeah, I appreciate where to me looking at what is. We're going to move into the final segment where we're really going to start extracting the wisdom. And already I see a bit of it coming here, which is that you presented it so well that the cognitive work is so important. And I agree with that 100%. Even though I love the somatic approach and I almost see it as oftentimes it is the most appropriate step, meaning meet people where they're at, help them get the cognitive understanding. And then there's often a more willingness to try out some of the more somatic work, which is often more of like experiments and experiences rather than thinking and talking. Right. Though there may be some dialogue.
So I like that little bit of wisdom that you're bringing in terms of recognizing, wow, yeah. There's a way that we as humans can expand our consciousness in a more graceful way.
So I can't wait to come back to this and go deeper and extract more wisdom out of all that you're saying, Carl. So thanks again for being here. Thank you everyone for tuning in to lead with heart. Dr. Jesse here. We'll be right back after this short break.
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Welcome back to lead with heart. In this final segment, I am here with Dr. Carl and we are happy to discuss the wisdom that you carry. We just left off with you opening up so much more about your own shadow work. And we were closing off the last segment with this notion that meeting someone maybe where they're at and more cognitively before opening up the deeper, vulnerable somatic parts. And as I understand it, you've created quite a beautiful algorithm that you've been using. So I would love to hear more about that and any other wisdom that you feel like you're walking with now with pleasure.
[00:39:47] Speaker B: It started with the mindfulness as we talked about. So that's something we're bringing in organizations. But the reality is once, yes, it's fine for stress management and containing yourself, but it doesn't necessarily bring fundamental changes on people's belief systems and how they're showing up in the organization. It certainly is a wonderful pathway, but it's not fully inclusive. So that's where I brought back the work that I had been using for myself on cognitive behavioral sciences.
The way we work with organizations is we first make sure that there's clarity about where the organization is to going, going, which is my strategic background. So it's mission, vision, what are the, you know, strategies quite clear as to where you're going.
And then that's when we get into shadow work. Right away we get the leaders to say, okay, now what are we doing as leaders? That's actually moving us away from that. So we're saying we want to be this very creative and innovative type of environment and we want to be the, you know, really place where talent enjoys working here and all that stuff. And then what behaviors are moving you away? Well, Our people are working till 11 o' clock at night or 12 and being bothered over weekends. And we're micromanaging, we're doing this and we're doing that. So we take a hard look at the behaviors that are actually going away from what we're trying to do. And to bring that level of clarity allows them to start then seeing the shadow, the corporate shadow and the individual shadow. So often as collective, I'll give you one example, image management, it's a huge thing in organizations. So they want to create an organization where things are transparent, where the real conversations are happening, where if results are good, we're able to call it out and have a conversation about it. But instead people are trying to massage the information present in such a way that they don't look bad. So image management could be a good example of that.
[00:41:40] Speaker A: Not always the most authentic people feel.
[00:41:42] Speaker B: Well, there's a lot of non authenticity in organizations. And when you ask people what kind of organization we want, they want to be authentic, they want to have the right conversation, they want to be able to call out performances that are not aligned, et cetera. So by bringing to the forefront the behaviors that are moving us away, which is classic acceptance, commitment, therapy, work, identifying the belief system driving that example.
If I tell my colleague my true beliefs about how he's showing up or even the work he's doing, I may not be in his favor, I may break the dynamic that we have together, he may not like me as much, etc. So there's all these belief systems driving all these behaviors which are not serving the organization.
[00:42:28] Speaker A: So this, which a lot of times they're not even conscious of those beliefs.
[00:42:31] Speaker B: No, that's the point.
[00:42:32] Speaker A: Or they're not conscious that those beliefs are actually impacting their performance, all that put together.
[00:42:36] Speaker B: So we help them connect the dots. One, the beliefs are often not voiced, they're unconscious, and hence the movements perpetuate themselves. The behaviors just keep going. So we want cultural change, but we don't understand the belief systems that are driving the old behavior. So until you bring that out, you will not engage in that corporate change.
So that's the kind of work we do at the collective and the individual.
[00:43:02] Speaker A: The first step is just getting them to show up, obviously, but it's to really help extract or cognitively see the shadows and educate them.
[00:43:10] Speaker B: Exactly. And then starting to identify what kind of behaviors, collective and individual, need to be put in practice. So in act language we talk about what are we moving towards. So we need to have a very clear intent what Values do we promote? What kind of intention do we have in terms of growth as a team, as an organization, all that to serve whatever strategy, vision, mission, all that stuff.
Now we bring the moving away stuff. What is actually getting the way? So what's the shadow? What's underneath the iceberg? And that's where most change initiatives fail. And we know that most, be it mergers and acquisitions being major transformations, very few of them deliver the type of outcomes that they planned on getting in the forefront in the onset of that initiative. So it's by unleashing that shadow collectively and then for each leader. So typically we'll come in with individual leadership plans where each leader is able to see what do I want to deliver as a leader. Maybe I want to becoming more inspirational, less hands on. Maybe I want to be leveraging my team a bit more. Maybe I want to actually be speaking up more and offering my ideas more, because I wasn't.
So we get each leader to see how they could contribute to the direction that the organization is going in and that how they want to show up. And then we look at their shadow. So why are, why am I not showing up in a meeting? Well, imposter syndrome. I'm afraid that if I say this stupid thing then my credibility is going to do that or the opposite. I'm intervening all the time. My value, when you look at the behaviors and the belief systems behind it, well, if I don't intervene, people won't give me credit, people won't see that.
[00:44:44] Speaker A: I'm, that's my role. That's my role.
[00:44:46] Speaker B: That's what taking time away from your colleagues, etc. So getting to unpack how and why you're working the way you're working, that is conscious leadership. You're grading getting greater awareness on how you are working. That's emotional intelligence. That's the definition of emotional intelligence, right? It's, it's self awareness and self regulation.
[00:45:05] Speaker A: And would you say all of this is what, when you use the language, conscious capitalism, this is that, right?
[00:45:10] Speaker B: The conscious capitalism is arising from that. A very important concept. There is a reality, there's belief systems right now in society, that economic performance is the only way to drive society.
I come from an MBA background. For many years my job was to create economic value in companies. That could include how we leverage the human resources, that could include how we influence our public relations to make sure that we shine, that we look good, are we really good? That doesn't matter. How do we look? So conscious capitalism is around bringing consciousness to what we do awareness that we are having impact on multiple stakeholders and just creating economic value to the detriment of other stakeholders, community members, the world, the ecosystem working in is just not a sustainable way. And when you ask an individual, what do you value? Very few leaders will say, I enjoy destroying this planet, I enjoy creating poverty or moving richness in one direction rather than others, et cetera. Individually, people have a moral compass.
We have to give them access to that moral compass.
And conscious capitalism is about giving the moral compass back to the leadership teams and finding innovative ways of reaching the shareholder needs, of reaching the economic value creation as a subset, as a critical step in reaching something that's bigger, which is social contribution, which is social.
[00:46:46] Speaker A: It was the way we're all interconnected.
[00:46:47] Speaker B: And because we're all connected and we can't continue on. And that's been by, you know, in my new direction that I've been giving to my career, that's what I want to bring in organizations as well.
It's not a one or the other. We could have both. We could have incredibly conscious organizations which are serving humanity while delivering exceptional financial results, but sustainable ones. Of course, it's not necessarily just for the short term. You have to go beyond the short term, the medium, long term. And conscious capitalism is about taking into consideration all the stakeholders, managing a business for sustainable growth, growth and profitability in time.
But that is simply an indicator. The sustainable growth and profitability is a means to supply a greater outcome, which is value contribution, and that resonates to hire the best talent. People want to work for these organizations, that helps in retaining them, that helps in bringing in investments, etc. So it's a win win solution. You just got to change your mindset. You got to understand why you were stuck in the other one.
[00:47:52] Speaker A: You said earlier, you mentioned that you know, that the individual and the collective and what sparked in my mind then it relates to exactly what you're saying about conscious capitalism is that when we're, when a company has a leader or a chief of a tribe, a father of a family, mother of a family, whatever it is that that dynamics, those energies ripple down. And so sometimes it's, you know, when you said the collective, I'm like, yeah, that everyone has their own own unique moral compass. But because there's a leader who does not exemplify vulnerability or make it okay to speak up or be heard within an organization or your head's chopped off if you do well, guess what? That quickly spreads like wildfire. Even though wildfire. Even though I, as you know, worker BZ may not really feel that way, but I'm trained the same way that we get trained in family. So I love that. I think that's a huge piece of wisdom is that that while it benefits any and all of us to do our own work and to awaken, it really, really makes a big impact when leaders do this because now they're creating the collective and enough leaders doing this on the planet. At the same time, all of a sudden we have a systemic change which is what we so deeply need because we are in dire times right now and AI coming in and changing workplace and all that. There's so much adapting that needs to happen. So. So I love that you brought that to the forefront, Carl.
And I want to say here we do. Sadly, I want to keep going, but we have to wrap this for all the reasons that we do.
Can you just remind people one more time where they can find out more about what you're doing and anything else you want them to know about?
[00:49:26] Speaker B: Veracon Repeat my website, which is mindsmatterinoneword.com so you'll see the kind of work we're doing there. Obviously my LinkedIn at car Carl Lemieux. If you just put in workplace psychologist, you'll probably find on my profile and Vertical Growth book co written with Michael Bunting.
[00:49:44] Speaker A: And a new book coming out.
[00:49:45] Speaker B: New book will be probably still a year's works. We've got a lot of interviews to do. So that'll be with Field Urbano co writing that Bringing Soul to Business, which will be the actual transformation process towards consciousness in organization.
[00:50:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. So, yeah. You really haven't been up to anything all these years, huh?
[00:50:04] Speaker B: That's why I hang out in the jungle here. There's nothing else to do.
[00:50:08] Speaker A: No. Thank you so much for blessing us with your presence today.
[00:50:10] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:50:11] Speaker A: Amazing. So grateful that you said yes and grateful that you're here.
Yeah. So thank you so much for coming, Carl.
[00:50:17] Speaker B: It's a pleasure to you and your audience. Thank you, Jesse.
[00:50:20] Speaker A: Well, stay tuned for more on Lead With Heart. In upcoming episodes, we'll be bringing on other amazing guests and continuing, continue to extract wisdom through vulnerability and courage. So please stay tuned for more incoming episodes right here on Lead With Heart. I'm Dr. Jesse Hansen, signing out for now. Take good care.
